In this episode, Lindsie sits down with Steve Haberlin, assistant professor at the University of Central Florida, to break down the real difference between mindfulness and meditation—and why they’re so often confused. Steve shares how his journey began with martial arts as a kid and evolved into years of research with students and educators, exploring how brief practices can reduce stress, improve focus, and support mental health. You’ll also hear what research suggests about the “minimum effective dose” of meditation, why consistency matters more than perfection, and how morning practice can work with your brain’s natural rhythm. Plus, Steve and Lindsie zoom out into the future: how AI, virtual reality, and wearables may personalize meditation like never before—and why privacy and safety must stay part of the conversation.
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(0:00 - 0:33) I've tried all kinds and I always come back to certain ones because like mantra meditation is very much proved, it's proven and very much practitioners will tell you this, it gives a very deep level of rest. So when you practice the mantra, you actually, the breathing gets, the breathing gets deeper than sleep. So you in other words, you take in less oxygen, your oxygen consumption is actually less than sleep, even within a few minutes of mantra meditation.
(0:34 - 2:53) So you get a very, very relaxed, like deep sense of rest. And so that's something I like to have in my day because I'm busy with a lot of projects and whatever, and a lot of stress and I, and maybe you don't sleep that well, I don't know, but you're right, not every night is a great night's sleep. So you go, Oh, that, that would give me that deep rest during the day. So I always come back to something like that. And I like focus, I need focus in my work. So a little bit of breath meditation, where I'm just kind of aware of my senses, I come to my breath, and I might be aware of my hearing the sound or my body. And I like techniques that just kind of bring me to the present moment, kind of keep me in the zone, you know, zoned in or kind of dialed in. And so that's, see, that's what works for me. But I don't know, Lindsie, I was talking a lot, I wonder what do you do? Hey, friends, welcome back to the show. I'm Lindsie. And today we're going to talk about something that comes up in so many of our conversations here, mindfulness and meditation, but with a very 2026 twist. I'm joined by Steve Haberlin, an assistant professor in the College of Community Innovation and Education at the University of Central Florida. His work sits right at the intersection of mindfulness, meditation, and technology, including AI. And he has a new book coming out this spring, meta meditation for mental health, how neuroscience, virtual reality and AI are changing practice and how you can benefit. In this episode, we get into the difference between mindfulness and meditation and why people mix them up. What the research actually says about short practices, like a three to five minute reset, the idea of minimum effective dose for meditation and how to make it realistic. Why so many people quit apps and what helps people actually stick with it. And the big one, how AI virtual reality and wearables may shape the future of mental wellness. Plus the real concerns around privacy, safety and over reliance. If you've ever thought I want to meditate, but I can't do it right, or I don't have time, or even is an app enough, this conversation is going to meet you right where you are. As a reminder, the content shared on PCOS Unfiltered is for informational and educational purposes only.
(2:53 - 4:14) The views and opinions expressed by the hosts and guests are not intended to serve as medical advice. Always consult with a qualified healthcare professional before making any changes to your diet, exercise or treatment plan. The information shared is based on personal experience and expert interviews and is not a substitute for professional medical guidance. All right, let's dive in. Here's my conversation with Steve Haberland. Hello, welcome. Welcome to Steve. I'm super excited for this episode, meditation, mindfulness, and it's something I feel like comes up a lot throughout episodes, but we can do a deep dive and you kind of bring a little spin to it. So I'm super excited for that. So how did you get started researching mindfulness and all these, you know, other mind body practices? Sure. So I started, it goes way back to about 12 years old when I was enrolled in martial arts class and the instructor came in and he said, kneel down, face the wall. I think I told you this in a previous conversation and, you know, concentrate, face the wall, kneel down, close your eyes, concentrate. And I didn't, I don't even know if you use the word meditation, but I didn't know what we were doing. And next door was a row. I always say the next door was an aerobic studio.
(4:14 - 5:44) So the music was like shaking the walls and I'm sitting there and I couldn't concentrate. I just wanted to, you know, jump around and do the karate stuff. And, but it piqued my interest. I was curious. I started reading about it as a teenager, different things like Buddhism, Zen Buddhism, and then by early twenties learned transcendental meditation, which is for people unfamiliar, it's a mantra where you use a mantra or a sound. And I learned that formally how to do that. And did that for, you know, a good 20 years. I was a journalist, I was a school teacher, different, wore different hats. And then started to, while I was in my master's program at the University of South Florida, I started to look at mindfulness. Mindfulness had really started to become a thing, you know, as a momentum. So I started looking at, with some of my students, the elementary students, we did a little pilot study. And then I continued that work in my dissertation. So in my dissertation, again, I was at USF and continued to just study with, I was working with student teachers, supervising student teachers. And again, I asked the question, what would happen if I brought mindfulness techniques in, especially not only for them, but at the time for myself as a supervisor, because I don't know if people know this, but the mentors are the people who go in and train student teachers are usually doc students, and they're just overloaded with coursework and doing their own research. And then as part of that, they're supposed to supervise these student teachers and get them ready for usually the elementary or the middle school classroom.
(5:45 - 12:46) So I was wondering, what if I did like breathing exercises and walking meditation and walking mindfulness and mindfulness when I was sitting in there and observing them. So that was my dissertation research. And then it just evolved. I just continued to do that. And then when I worked with the undergrads at a private college, again, I wondered, okay, if I use this when they first come into the classroom, will that help them with distraction and being anxious and overwhelmed, which they were. And so that's how it kind of evolved. And I just continued to look at it from there. And it just wove into higher ed and into the work that I do. Yeah. Yeah. So are there any other deeper, what were your findings with all that as you started weaving that in? The findings, I guess, depended differently on the studies that we were doing. In my dissertation, it definitely seemed to help me personally or professionally with being able to supervise and be less stressed and more focused. But then when I started to do that work with undergrads and work with other faculty, we definitely found that they were able to use even brief meditation. And the research will support this. Even something like three or three to five minutes of like a mental reset can have some effects on reducing the stress level, the anxiety level, improving cognition, improving focus. The research doesn't, the body research right now with college students doesn't really definitively support that your academics will improve. In other words, you know, there's mixed results on quizzes and test exam scores and things like that. What it does show pretty strongly is that it will though help them focus, it will help them reduce their stress, anxiety, in some cases even reduce depression. So my research findings aligned pretty much with, and they still do, pretty much with a larger body of research that overall these are pretty effective interventions for college students. Yeah, yeah. Are you, did you find anything like with men versus women, like any differences there? Yeah, there are. There are differences. Brown University did a very interesting study where they found that the male students meditated even longer than female students in their classes or, you know, in their study and the women produced, or the female students actually reported higher decreases in, you know, negative emotion and moods. In other words, the female students meditated less and got stronger benefits or greater benefits, which is right. It's really, it's really interesting. You go, why is that? I mean, there's a few theories, you know, one of them is that female students, you know, just females socially growing up or maybe more kind of socialized into being more in tune with their emotions, more in tune with their feeling, right? So when they're reporting this stuff out, maybe they are more sensitive to mindfulness meditation. They also, in general, when another research finding, this is national, national studies show women meditate on average more than men. They usually like incorporated into yoga and those kinds of techniques, but they do, they're more into mindfulness and they do practice it. Men have a bit of a stigma, right? It's not macho or it's not, you know, you're not a man if you meditate, if you do mindfulness. And I think this has probably changed a little bit. There's people out there like, I don't know, have you heard the podcast Men Talking Mindfulness? There's, there's two Navy SEALs, former Navy SEALs, right? As tough as it gets. And they go around training in mindfulness and they use it for mental focus and performance. And so there's people, Mark Devine, he's another former Navy SEAL, a colleague of mine, he goes around, he's the one that coined the term box breathing. And so these are, these are, you know, pretty, pretty rugged individuals who luckily, fortunately, they've gone around and started promoting that this is not, this is not a, you know, this doesn't take away from your manliness or this doesn't, this isn't, it isn't even really a gender thing. It's a human thing. You have stress, you have pressures, you know, you want good health, mental, physical, good health. And these are, these are empirically proven research-based or evidence-based techniques that work regardless of who you are, you know, you're, you're just being a human, they're gonna, you're gonna respond to them differently, maybe based on gender, there is some divergence, but overall, you can benefit no matter who you are. So that would be my message, despite all that research, it's like, just stop, stop thinking it's not cool or tough or whatever it is that it's weird. It's these, these are techniques been around thousands of years. And now in the last, you know, whatever, 20 years, I've been scientifically proven to, to work to help you. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, and we live in such a stressful world, you know, I mean, we're, we're doing so many things that are, you know, our ancestors never did before, right? And we're stimulated by, you know, electronics and just traffic and like all these things. And so it's almost kind of getting back to the basics, which is a lot of what I do, like with my program with nutrition and stuff, too. But part of it, yes, is that mindfulness piece, and kind of following like what our ancestors did when we didn't have diseases and, you know, and obesity and, and all those, those things can help you in so many ways, for sure. So let's kind of even dive deeper. What specifically, how would you define meditation and mindfulness? Sure. Yeah. Mindfulness, the term mindfulness, which has become very popular in meditation or often interchangeable, you know, they're often kind of muddled or mixed, and they're not exactly the same thing. The popular or actually kind of the definition found professional literature for mindfulness would be, it's just present moment awareness without judgment. So in other words, you're, you're in the moment, your senses are engaged, and you have this kind of open awareness where you're not labeling, right? You're not attaching labels to things, but you're just experiencing it. So I just, I like present moment awareness, that'll be kind of the short definition. Whereas meditation is an umbrella term that includes a lot of different mental training methods. So it can, it can include mindfulness, there's mindfulness meditation, you know, like breath awareness, there's loving kindness meditation, which falls under kind of that umbrella of Buddhist tradition. So there's, there's meditation that you use mindfulness, but then there are other types of meditation that don't come from that tradition of mindfulness, which stems back to all the way I've practiced mantra meditation, it comes more from what they call the Vedic tradition.
(12:47 - 13:28) There's no mention per se of mindfulness, they don't really use that construct in the teaching. Although when you do mantra meditation, you're probably mindful too, right? Because you have to be aware of the sound of the mantra and you, you kind of pick it up, you know, where it is, and you drift off. So there's mindfulness as a quality you develop. And then there's meditation, which is more like the formal methods of, you know, of mental training from the different traditions. That's, that's how I would kind of tease the two apart. So is there for somebody like just starting off, would they start with one practice over the other? And like, why should they even? Yeah, that's, it's a, it's a, that's a really good question. (13:28 - 16:36) And here's if you go back to the research, here's the tricky thing...Here's the challenging thing. They've proved, research shows that different types of meditation or mindfulness practice have different distinct effects on the brain and the physiology. So in other words, not all meditation is the same. If I do a very focused awareness meditation, that's not necessarily going to have the same effects if, as if I do what's called like a compassion, compassion or loving kindness based meditation, because that's developing qualities like compassion and empathy. So it's a good analogy would be, you know, you go to the gym, right? And you're doing strength training, and you're doing curls or pushups or bicep, you're training the physical muscular, you know, the muscles. But if you run, and you do some kind of aerobic activity, it's still exercise, but it's actually targeting different right facets or different parts of the body or different different systems. So that would be my analogy. It's all meditation, right? It's all exercise, but you're not doing the same thing. So that said, I think you have to really kind of assess, okay, what why am I doing meditation or mindfulness? What am I? What is what are my goals? Right? What's my current situation? What outcomes do I want? So for example, am I really stressed? I'm really anxious during the day and it's getting in the way of getting things done. I need to reduce my stress level because I'm under a lot of pressure. You know, it's a mom, it could be a mom just had a child and the dad and they're in the house and they're working from home and they got little kids running around or they have a baby, right? And they're under this extreme pressure. They need more energy, maybe they need more focus, they need less stress, they might adapt certain type of meditation versus someone that I have a lot of time and I'm more maybe on like a spiritual journey, right? I'm trying to just raise my consciousness and do other and kind of have a reflective type insight approach. So I think you have to assess, you go, okay, what am I doing it for? And then just start really gradual and you do have to experiment a little bit, try to find a practice that resonates with you, that you're drawn, I know that doesn't sound scientific, but you know, you know, you're drawn to it, right? There's, there is, there is research showing that we're drawn to different what we call sensory motor type techniques. So someone might be more drawn to the sensations, you know, the feeling of the breath coming in, or maybe feeling some people more somatic where they feel the body, sound, people who like sounds would probably gravitate towards the mantra meditation. Then there's like visual ones that use visualization, you might, right, you might gravitate or you might be more drawn towards that. So I think you do have to experiment, you try a little bit, you try a technique, you try, you see maybe a week, couple weeks, and you see how you feel, you see how you interact, or you relate to that technique, and you have to feel it out. I've tried all kinds, and I always come back to certain ones, because like mantra meditation is very much, it's proven and very much, practitioners will tell you this, it gives a very deep level of rest. (16:36 - 18:23) So when you practice the mantra, you actually, the breathing gets, the breathing gets deeper than sleep. So you, in other words, you, you take in less oxygen, your oxygen consumption is actually less than sleep, even within a few minutes of mantra meditation. So you get a very, very relaxed, like deep sense of rest. And so that's something I like to have in my day, because I'm busy with a lot of projects and whatever, and a lot of stress, and I, and maybe you don't sleep that well, I don't know, but you're right, not every night is a great night sleep. So you go, oh, that, that would give me that deep rest during the day. So I always come back to something like that. And I like focus, I need focus in my work. So a little bit of breath meditation, where I'm just kind of aware of my senses, I come to my breath, and I might be aware of my hearing the sound or my body. And I like techniques that just kind of bring me to the present moment, kind of keep me in the zone, you know, zoned in, or kind of dialed in. And so that's, see, that's what works for me. But I don't know, Lindsay, I was talking, I'm talking a lot, but I wonder, what do you do? I mean, what's your go to technique? So, I mean, I will admit, I don't do it regularly. Like, I just, yeah, to be honest, hopefully my husband doesn't listen to this later now. Because he travels for work. And so that's when I feel like I'm really able to focus and do stuff like this. And then when he's, of course, home, we're like, you know, doing our own thing. But But yeah, but I mean, I have used apps before, you know, as a guided meditation. But I do also like the, like the sound bath, like the frequencies, yes, to kind of help you. And I will put that on before bedtime, a lot of the times.
(18:24 - 20:31) Um, and even just kind of leave it on repeat sometimes throughout the night. Yeah, so that that seems to be like you mentioned the sound, I feel like that's probably where I would, I would land. Yeah, so you're drawn to the auditory, right type technique. So yeah, you might like to learn a mantra technique, but the sound bath, the sounds are really good to the vibration. So yeah, that's, I mean, that's like your entry point. And then you, you kind of just make that a regular practice. And then you can always try other ones and layer them on or it's just like, we go back to exercise, some people hate running, and some people love running, but then somebody gets in the pool, and they love swimming. And, you know, you're getting benefits out of it. It's just that thing that you're kind of wired for, you know, and you have to, there is a layer of experiment, experimentation that you have to go through and figure out, okay, this is what works for me. Yeah. Is there anything like with the research for like the minimum amount of time, you know, because it's kind of like, like you mentioned with exercise, you have to kind of grow that muscle, right? And so you start with like a minute a day versus maybe three or five minutes a day. Is there anything there? There is there is some research supports, you know, what's the minimum effective dose they use that in clinical minimum effective, right? Minimum effective dose seems to be about like 10 or 12 minutes a day. This comes from Dr. Jha. She's in, she's out of University of Miami and wrote a really good book called Peak Mind. And her team found that about 12 minutes a day of mindfulness, this is mindfulness meditation, just kind of sitting and watching your breath and then coming back to your breath when you're distracted. But 12 minutes a day was the magic number. It was like the just right. And it was only I think like five days a week, I think you could take the weekend off and not, you know, I'm going to take a weekend off for meditation. But like five days a week, 12 minutes a day gave you enough benefit where you saw, for example, increased cognition, function and focus and reduce stress. And that was enough. Less than that, maybe you didn't get much benefit out of it. (20:32 - 26:02) Now, there is also a, what they call like a dose effect kind of relationship that if you do like 30 minutes a day or something regularly, you could, you know, turn the benefits from what they call a state which is temporary to more of like a lasting trait. So that might take a little more time. The tricky thing, again, with that is there's different traditions and types of meditation. So like with mantra meditation, I was taught, it's about 15 to 20 minutes a day, but they recommend it, like when you get up before breakfast, and then like in the evening before dinner, because one's kind of sets you up for the day to be clear headed and energized. And the other one kind of brings resets you, right throws off the stress you accumulated from the workday and get you maybe ready for better for sleep to wind down. So there's, right, you can position them kind of strategically. But I would say if somebody could build up to 10, even 10 to 15 minutes a day, maybe just do that when you wake up in the morning and try that for 30 days, you would, I would bet you'd see some kind of results. Yeah, yeah. And I think you said an important thing there too. So it sounds like more, if you're going to have to pick to start maybe morning as like a first thing in the morning type practice would be more beneficial, right? I mean, because I know cortisol levels and all that, it sounds like. Yeah, I think the timing and that, well, first of all, consistency. Yeah. Like anything, if you want consistent results, you have to do it consistently. So even if you drop and on one day, you only fit in five or eight minutes or something, I think just doing it every day for some amount of time every day is great. I've heard someone say the best meditation is the one method is the one you actually do. Yeah. All right. So that's good advice, right? You do something every day. Yeah. And then the timing's important. The morning is great because there's a few reasons you haven't got, you know, you haven't got caught up in the hectic energy of the day. You haven't started doing things and the kids are coming, packing their lunches or you're getting ready for work and all this going on. You get up and there's that little space or gap between you get, before you get busy. The other benefit is it sets, it can set the tone of the day. So it's maybe a less, a calmer, more positive, right? Energized day ahead of you, more focused day. And there is some science, there's some brain science behind it because when you first wake up, you are not in what's called, not quite in what's called a beta state. Your, your, your frequency is not at a beta. And for people listen, that what is beta? There are, there are different brain, brainwave frequencies and a beta is our typical waking brainwave states. So I don't know, we're having a conversation right now, or you're writing a, you're writing an email or something. You're not, your brainwaves are, they're measured by this speed and they're moving a little faster. It's more of a little bit concentrated, a little more stressful state. And you're not there yet. When you first wake up, you're shifting, you're probably in what's called an alpha, which is one level down. And it's a little bit of slower brainwaves, about eight to 12 kind of bleeps per, per second. So it's a little slower. And that's more of a meditative state. It's more of like a relaxed, kind of chill creative space. So when you first wake up, you're catching, you're riding that wave, you know what I mean? You're catching that alpha state and just meditating in that state. So you're not kind of starting from scratch. So that would be a little insider tip. I would just say, just link it. And another tip for habits is link it to something you already do. So if you go to the restroom, it's like I go to the restroom and then right after, or I have my coffee, you know, right before my breakfast or coffee, I meditate. If you link it to a habit or daily routine that you already do a task, then you're more likely to just kind of embed it, you know, like brush my teeth and then I meditate. It's the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. I actually incorporate some hypnosis into my program as well. I'm not certified, but I, I have a recording from somebody that is. And so my recommendation for my clients is to usually put it on at bedtime. So they go into, you know, that, that deep sleep hits the subconscious. Right. But I have some people that don't prefer to do that, or maybe because their spouse is next to them, you know, whatever, but I have had people say they put it on first thing in the morning. Right. Like you mentioned kind of, you know, as they're still not fully, fully aware and awake. And so they found a lot of benefit doing it that way as well. That makes sense. I'm not, I'm not a hypnotherapist, but I, from my understanding you are again, right? Slowing you, you have to get down to a deeper or slower brainwave states to kind of give instructions, right. To make that work. So that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I loved this conversation because it was both grounding and forward thinking. Here are a few takeaways I'm personally sitting with mindfulness is present moment awareness without judgment. And meditation is the bigger umbrella with different methods for different outcomes. You don't need an hour, even a three to five minute reset can help your nervous system come back online. If you're building a habit, the goal isn't perfect. It's consistent and linking it to something you already do makes it easier.
(26:03 - 26:42) And the future is coming fast. AI plus virtual reality plus wearables may make meditation more personalized than ever. And it's important to keep the human side privacy and safety in the conversation. If you want to connect with Steve, he shares that LinkedIn is the best place to find him right now. And he also mentioned that his new book meta meditation for mental health will be releasing this spring with a pre order page available on Amazon. I'll link everything in the show notes. And if this episode helped you, here's the simplest way to support the show. Leave a quick rating and review. It genuinely helps more people find this conversation.
(26:43 - 26:59) And of course, share this episode with a friend who's stressed, overwhelmed, or trying to build a mindfulness practice that actually gets real life. Alright, friend, I'm sending you so much love. And I'll see you on the next episode of PCOS Unfiltered: Nourish, Heal, Thrive.